In the end, the people make the community.

Great article, Karma....and I think the above sentence is EXTREMELY important to remember.

For the record, karma, that's not entirely true. I have tried to remain reasonably neutral, and have found myself struck by the venom of others. I am extremely frustrated with the fact that there is absolutely no respect to be found for a dissenting opinion here.

And yes, I am changing it. I am just trying to figure out a way to do it that doesn't involve leaving this site altogether.

I think with the growth of JU we need more admins...

The current admins do a great job, but Brad and yourself can't police all the articles, and the amount of personal attacks around is absolutely mortifying.

It's a shame that it has come to this, but it's now a brutally honest truth, that some people will not act civil around here, and it needs to be policed accordingly.

BAM!!!

I think JoeU represents a free marketplace of ideas; but like most markets it will experience the odd market correction. I must say I feel I've gotten gang(teamed) worse than Andy Dufresne on laundry day when registering dissenting opinion in a civilized manner, but that will pass I think. As the site grows, the prevailing ideas, social norms, and discussion formats will change.

The current admins do a great job, but Brad and yourself can't police all the articles, and the amount of personal attacks around is absolutely mortifying.

The problem is- I *can* police all of it.  Why don't I?  Because as soon as I do people start attacking me.  I've been called power hungry, I've been blacklisted because I make admin suggestions, I've been told that I am stifling freedom of speech (I guess freedom also includes bashing on people).  If you want a hard nose approach, I can give it (I've done it before on other sites) but at what cost?  Don't think that we don't have experience in this, because we do.  Don't think that we don't know the course of online communities.  In the past, we were tough and cleaned house of all the "bad apples".  We were hoping that we wouldn't have to do that here.  We were hoping that people could be mature enough to back off when we said "quit doing that!"  The problem is- we underestimated how nasty people can be toward each other.  We also have let it go too long.  People *expect* total freedom to say whatever they want on this site without being moderated.  Can you honestly say you would be "OK" with me deleting posts that you made or hiding your articles when I found them getting out of hand?  Or, would you bitch?  Or, do you simply feel that *you* are not part of the problem, so it wouldn't happen to you?

The problem is - the *people* that are bashing on each other need to give it a break.  Agree to disagree.  If somebody pushes your buttons, avoid them, or simply don't respond to them.  Otherwise, you have to understand that they will keep irritating you.

Can you honestly say you would be "OK" with me deleting posts that you made or hiding your articles when I found them getting out of hand?  Or, would you bitch?  Or, do you simply feel that *you* are not part of the problem, so it wouldn't happen to you?

Yes, I'd be okay with it. I'd like to see a little more "moderator interference" around here. At least during the more heated periods, anyway. I say let them complain -- they do anyway.

Anyone who has moderated a community or hosted a BBS (us pre-Commercial 'net oldtimers) has had to develop policies to handle these sorts of things. My main bug-a-boo was attacking personalities rather than ideas. When somebody got out of hand I used to pull their posting privileges for a specifed period of time and send them an email explaining what the problem was and why. I didn't give them a chance to bitch. Then it was up to them whether it was permanent or temporary. If they wanted to get into an email flame war with me they were gone forever. If after suspension they kept on doing what got them suspended, I eventually banished them. (Not unlike what happened to Dan.)

I'd like to see you all be a little more forceful a little sooner. You all are too friendly.

Yes, I'd be okay with it. I'd like to see a little more "moderator interference" around here.

Well, it has started with the notice of forum posts being "hid" if we do not see them as appropriate.

Now, authors will claim that they get hid when they shouldn't have.  However, as the "owner" of your blog, you need to moderate it yourself.  If it is left unmoderated, and is going nowhere fast, it will be hid.

This is the first step.  If things don't improve- or I am spending too much time keeping the peace, things will take another step.  Hopefully people will just try to be a bit more civil

Karma's gonnna lay the smackdown!

Seriously, though, there has to be a limit.  The civility has to start somewhere, so it may as well start with me.  Now, if people have a problem with me they can email me and we'll discuss it away from JU...but no-one wants to do that, there's no points and no glory involved there.

Anyway, I for one will be trying to be nicer.

Personally, I see the dilemna karma is addressing.

This site is an excellent forum for free speech, but free speaking can bring out some rather strong opinions. If those arguments are debated on their merit, and personal attacks on the posters or other users are avoided, then things run the way they should. There's a big difference between "I disagree with your argument, and here are several counterparts I'd like to offer" and "You're a doo-doo head". Ok it gets stronger than the latter statement, but, as this post was not denoted as an adult thread, I'd like to keep it clean, plus, really...the personal attacks aren't much more mature than that, if they make it that far.

I'm sure I've written some abrasive articles. Personally, I appreciate the chance to do so, and would appreciate it if we all played nice so we can keep on doing it.

KarmaGirl:

START POLICING.

I am beginning to get a foul whif from this blog, from the pseudo-adult infantile fears bandied about by the likes of ... (in the interest in non-specific flame) those who do such things.

I am beginning to resent the inclusion of the JU Widget into the WinCustomize/Stardock catalog. Yes, it is often "a fact that ...," whatever the un-self-examined blog-pest asserts, but it is inane and offensive to see it read so utterly simplisticly and then touted so piously.

You ask for common decency, but seem willing to tolerate apalling incecency in the actual content of assertions and suggestions when couched with the slightest wry, right-wing, self-aggrandizing "wit"m -- wich too offten is like the wit of the gravely maladjusted kid-in-the back who makes farting noises while adults try to educate them. Except, now of course they can vote- and speak-their-minds about (Uh, Hmmm, for example, no offense intended) passive-aggressive genocide in Africa, via polio and AIDS. (Hey, what-th'-F*?)

START POLICING, or your public will police this place for you by its slow deterioration into a full-blown real-life gothic horror such as haunts too many little minds that post here already.

... and (thank you Barry G) in their hearts they know I'm right about them and their pitifully abusive fathers.

DanMS Himself

Admin note:  Hey "Dan" don't write nasty notes to other JU users on this blog.  Why don't you quit hiding behind an "anonymous" nick and make an account?

Stay off this thread unless you have something to say that is on topic.

JU Widget into the WinCustomize/Stardock catalog

That sounds interesting. What does it do, put the latest articles onto the desktop or something like that?

(As for the rest of the message, I can only imagine "start policing" meant "please delete my posts." )

I can only imagine "start policing" meant "please delete my posts."

That's what I assumed, too

** Well hello there, DanMS, whoever you are, so nice of you to respond to my article! Your comments, however, are off topic here, and its not nice to hijack Karma's thread, so why dont you respond on the thread in question, where i'll be happy to answer your numerous inquiries. There's no reason why you cant do that there, unless you happen to be one of the 2 individuals I've blacklisted, in which case all i can say is "tuff luck." **

Well, Little, you see, perhaps it has escaped your memory, but that thread is closed. No more comments. Are you moderator there? Do you remember closing it to replies?

Do you know, it totally escaped me that you might be one of the moderators/administrators. That might, though explain much of the tone of your pronouncements, and the, uhh, lack of equivalent or offsetting tone in the approved replies, were it not for a good, positive administratibve attitude.

** Admin note: Hey "Dan" don't write nasty notes to other JU users on this blog. Why don't you quit hiding behind an "anonymous" nick and make an account? **

Admin? Sounds suspiciously anonymous to me. Not Little_whip, perhaps, which is of course not an anonymous name but the one you legally received or took? Hmmm. Anonymous. I'll have to resort to the dictionary for that one, if I can find a dictionary sub-meaning antonym related to blogging under assumed name.

** Stay off this thread unless you have something to say that is on topic. **

Quite right, quite right. Good policing. I did ask for it, didn't I? Well done!

There, I hope that's back on topic. I would like to say I was just testing, but in reality I was quite angry and used appropriately (in my opinion) foul language in an inappropriate (in my opinion, again) context. Of course, you can always lead a reader to words and even make them read them, but can't make them understand. re. Samuel Johnson's kidking that stone in reply to Bishop Berkeley who was, well, not on the same runway.

Ah, but are you indeed the moderator/administrator? Well, then I hope you did get to read the deleted post, because I meant it. In fact, I thought it was well-written and not a little persuasive, but that's just my own inherited vanity of course.

OK, so I cannot and should not write nasty notes to other JU posters. Well, I have a reluctance to write nasty notes about people in other countries that my ancestors and fellow countrymen have oppressed and continue to oppress, economically and so on (you know what I mean), and I don't really like to piss on fellow bloggers either. Really don't like doing it, it just happens.

No I'm not blacklisted here on JU. Nor on any other blog for that matter. And I am a moderator of a group or two elswhere, where discussion of world matters is also commonplace.

Yes, like I said police or don't. If you don't then it will all drift somewhere. I think I suggested Gothic Horror. And if you do police it then it will also all drift somewhere.

DanMS Himself which will I think be adequate for a while. If not, then say so and I will retreat.

Reply By: KarmaGirl Posted: Friday, July 09, 2004
I can only imagine "start policing" meant "please delete my posts."


That's what I assumed, too

---------

Actually not. It meant post a moderator's admonition against racism and general idiocy. My comments were directed quite specifically toward what was posted, which was directed toward an extremely vague and unsupported notion of "entitlement" which was neither defined nor supported by argument. What ensued instead was a shotgun blast of platitudes lacking only a few choice perjoratives to qualify as indecent. At least that was my opinion. And in the deleted post in reply to that (being as I said unable to post to that thread in response to that ugly tone), I cited specific world-cultural reasons that the black, poor, diseased people of Africa had been led by white, priveleged, well-fed Europeans and Americans into that condition. ... and are currently being so led by international murder, corruption, tobacco, foul-medicines, military repression, lack of suffrage, addictive poisons (tobacco), and so forth. There, in one sentence is more relevant information than the entirety of the personal-op-mis-ed original post whining about their not paying us back the money they owe us.

Ah, I hope that's no longer off the topic here. You know, the topic of toxic v. phase, post-v-post, language, relevance, fact-v-diatribe, etc.?

Just let me know, mr/ms moderator.

DanMS Himself